BEYOND THE BLOG

THE CREATION ACCOUNT

Posted by anthonynorth on January 30, 2008

Happy Birthday Beyond the Blog

sage.jpg I’ve been fascinated with Genesis for many years. Over that time I’ve asked myself a simple question: is it mere myth, or is there real knowledge to be found within the poetic nature of the words?
I’ve decided there is. I offer no justification, here, for any arguments for or against the account. I merely lay out the facts as I see them. One point, however. In this analysis, I only cover Chapter One, which does not go into great detail about Adam and Eve. An analysis of this will follow in a later essay.

A MATTER OF DAYS

At the time in which the Creation Account was written, the only element of reality with which man could interact was the known Earth itself. The universe above his head was the home of supernatural influences and didn’t enter his world view.
Hence, there is the direct assertion at the beginning of the account that: ‘In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth’. The actual construction of the heavens was literally of no value to them.
This said, the actual Creation occurred in Six Days. I would immediately agree with the Comte de Buffon, who argued that the Six Days were, infact, vast amounts of time. This is understandable in terms of the people at the time of the account. Their only easily measurable length of time was that dictated by the sun and moon – i.e. the day.

THE SIX DAYS

The first major assertion of the account relating to Earth is that the Earth:

‘was without form and void; and a darkness was upon the face of the deep’

The most generally accepted theory for the formulation of planet Earth is that gravity affected gas clouds of particles, attracting them into an etheric whole that would eventually condense into the planet as we know it.
Hence, at the beginning of Earth’s existence, it WAS without form, and void. At such an early period in Earth’s formulation, the solar system would also have been in a more primeval state, the gases being attracted to form the sun not yet densely packed enough to form nuclear reaction.
It is therefore valid to say that darkness was upon the face of the deep. And lo and behold:

‘God said, Let there be light, and there was light’

The sun had compacted to a point to allow nuclear reaction. And by the end of the first day, Cod had created night and day.

‘And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
‘And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
‘And God called the firmament Heaven …’

At the beginning of this period, the condensing gases would be changing constitution the closer such gases were to the central point of gravity. Hence, towards the centre of the cloud, the gases would be beginning to liquify. On the outer edges of the cloud the gases, however, would still be in a gaseous state.
In the centre of this reaction would be a point where liquid and gas would be breaking away from each other, forming the actual construction of the hard planet, and its circling atmosphere.
Hence, the waters under the firmament would be divided from the waters above, eventually becoming the planet and sky. And so endeth the second day.
God was particularly busy on the third day.

‘Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear … ‘

The atmosphere, having been created on the second day, the condensing of the actual planet had begun, and before long we see the construction of the land and the sea. Hence, the waters were gathered unto one place, other than upon land.
But God didn’t rest, for on the same day we find:

‘Let the Earth bring forth grass … ‘

As the Earth was forming the land and sea, it also formulated a concept known as the ‘primordial soup’ – a kind of cooking pot, wherefrom came life. And on the third day we clearly see these two processes going on almost simultaneously.
Admittedly, grass did not suddenly sprout of this ’soup’ – rather, the first form of life would be bacteria – but the writer of the account identified the first living thing as the genetically most basic form of life he could see about him. He had no knowledge of bacteria or microscopic creepy-crawlies, but intuition and scientific integrity remain sound.

The scientific hits within the Creation Account are becoming quite staggering. But God slept until the fourth day. Then:

‘ … and God said, Let there be lights in the firmament to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons and for days, and years …
‘ … And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: He made the stars also.’

We can immediately see an apparent problem here. It is ridiculous to see the sun, moon and stars only being created at this point in planet Earth’s evolution. But we must remember from what frame of reference the Creation Account is written.
Mortal existence could only be viewed in terms of the Earth itself. So to understand the fourth day, we must view it in terms of what the writer could have experienced had he been on Earth at the time of the fourth day.
The Earth had produced its initial life, the sea and land were existant, and it had an atmosphere. The concept of day and night would also exist. But of what order? For instance, would Earth have had an atmosphere as we know it today?
Science says not. Rather, the atmosphere would have been extremely volatile and gaseous, to such an extent that the whole Earth would have been shrouded in dense cloud. Light and dark would be appreciable on the Earth’s surface, but it would be a fused light, unlike day and night as we know it today. And as for celestial bodies, they would have been veiled from view.
Hence, from the Earth’s surface, the sun, moon and stars would not be visible. So on the fourth day, the atmosphere thinned out to become the atmosphere we appreciate today; exactly in line with scientific theory the sun, moon and stars would suddenly appear.
And so to the fifth day.

‘And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven’.

On the fourth day we saw the correct identification of vegetation before the evolution of actual creatures. Now, on the fifth day, we also see the correct process of creatures being first evolved in the sea.
So far so good. But within evolution theory, sea creatures must then crawl out of the sea to become land creatures, BEFORE they take to the sky. The Creation Account seems to get it completely wrong by saying creatures appeared, first, in the sea, and then in the sky.
Do we at last have an error in the creation account? No. Not necessarily.
Scientific methodology can be best identified as data collection, or observation, intermingled with intuitiveness. And in this apparent error we can see proof of the ‘observation’ element of scientific methodology.
Imagine you are a scientist in the second millennium BC. You have intuitively decided that creatures first came from the sea. So you look at the kinds of creatures you have around you – land animals such as sheep and dogs, birds, small reptiles and insects.
Which of them appears to resemble the next stage on from the fish? A sheep or dog shows no resemblance at all. They have well developed, muscular legs and hairy coats. Nothing like a fish. Insects are out – too many legs and too small.
So what about reptile? He can also be discounted. Although he is scaly, he has well developed legs and teeth. Even the fact that he can exist in water need not necessarily lead to the conclusion that he came from fish.
But what about the bird? Here we have a creature with rudimentary legs, suggestive of the next step forward from fish. He has a beak rather than well designed teeth. He has wings, which could be construed as a development of the fin. And as any fisherman will tell you, birds are clearly visible flying over the water when bringing in the catch.
Hence, it is feasible to argue that our second millennium BC scientist would opt for bird as the evolutionary outcome of fish. However, there is a more intuitive possibility here, too.
The actual evolutionary process from the fish is most likely the reptile. But the point is, the evolutionary line, leading to the present-day reptile, was not around to be observed by our ancient scientist. It had become extinct.
He could not, therefore, have seen this transition phase in action. Yet, as becomes obvious from the Adam and Eve Narrative, which will be discussed in the future, something intuitive within our scientist had suspicions regarding the reptile.
For it was the ’serpent’ – an ungodly creation – that tempted Eve, being condemned to crawl along the ground on its belly, as a snake.
And so to the Sixth Day.

‘And God said, Let the Earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping things, and the beast of the earth after His kind: and it was so.’

Thus we have the evolution of present day creatures, created ‘after His kind’, which itself can be termed to mean the next stage on from the previously evolved cousin; a direct hint at the acceptance of evolutionary principles at work in the account. All that is missing is man. But later that day …

‘ …God said, Let us make man in own image … ‘

And later:

‘God created man in his own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.’

And by the end of the Sixth Day evolution is complete.

(c) Anthony North, January 2008

Happy Birthday Beyond the Blog

32 Responses to “THE CREATION ACCOUNT”

  1. ric booth said

    LOVE IT! By the way, I do not think “God slept…” Perhaps you are confusing the words slept and wept? Whatev.

    Thank you for taking the time to write out my theological interpretation of Genesis. Its like you can read my mind!? You are aware many, both Christians and Atheists, are likely to pounce?? I will pray for you (I hope you don’t mind).

  2. Great read!
    So succinct and better than my time at Bible College.
    Cheers

  3. Shannon said

    I feel the writer greatly underestimates the intelligence of ancient man. Twisting things to fit his own personal view. Claiming that ancient humans had only one type of measurement for time, day and night is insulting. When looking back at ancient stone calendars, you realize they had an advanced understanding of the seasons, lunar cycles, eclipses and the movement of constellations. The essay continues in this line of thinking throughout. I believe there is great knowledge to be found in the creation story. However it must be approached in an unbiased way. There are many creation stories from many cultures. You must consider them all. Only then do you have a chance of ferreting out some underlying truth.

  4. Hi Ric,
    Typo noted. I’m pleased you like my account. I’ll be tackling the Adam and Eve Narrative within the month, hopefully.
    You said:

    ‘You are aware many, both Christians and Atheists, are likely to pounce??’

    Now what is the point of writing if you can’t have a bit of fun? :-)

    Hi Winslie,
    Long time no hear. I’m pleased you liked it, and thanks for the kind words.

    Hi Shannon,
    In my humble opinion I think the ancients had a greater knowledge than we do. See here, for starters:

    http://beyondtheblog.wordpress.com/2007/11/04/ancient-technology

    But this knowledge only came, and was defined, once the agricultural revolution, and building, came into being. The received wisdom is that the Creation Account was handed down through oral tradition by nomads, before this stage of social evolution. Hence, your criticism is perhaps premature.
    As is your automatic assumption that I’ve not studied other myths and accounts. Try these for starters:

    http://beyondtheblog.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/creation-and-meaning

    http://beyondtheblog.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/understanding-the-flood

    A little research would have answered this, I think.

  5. hokku said

    There are a great many problems in your interpretation of Genesis, and here are just a few:

    1. The very first words are subject to two quite different readings, depending on the pointing of the Hebrew. One can be understood as creation from “something,” the other as creation from “nothing.”

    2. There is no reason to consider the “six days” of Genesis as vast amounts of time; they are presented as days with an evening and a morning, and Exodus tells us the sabbath was instituted because creation took six days and on the seventh God rested. This shows that the days of Genesis were understood as quite literal and ordinary days, not vast periods of time.

    You wrote:
    “The sun had compacted to a point to allow nuclear reaction. And by the end of the first day, Cod had created night and day.”

    The problem with that, of course, is that light was created on the first day; but the sun was not created until the fourth day.

    You wrote:
    “Hence, the waters under the firmament would be divided from the waters above, eventually becoming the planet and sky. And so endeth the second day.”

    Genesis, however, depicts a solid firmament with sun, moon and stars set in, not beyond it. Beyond it are the waters above it, which are said later in the Bible to still be in existence. It is a completely unscientific cosmology.

    One could go on, but these examples alone show that what you have done is simply to allegorize Genesis — overlooking significant details in an attempt to harmonize a primitive and mistaken cosmology with what is known from science. There is no problem in that, unless one attempts to say that is what Genesis originally intended.

    Doing so is usually a stage in giving up the supposed infallibility of the Bible by allegorizing it. And of course if one can allegorize part of it, why not allegorize all of it? It is at least less damaging than assuming the Bible to be more than a very human and fallible collection of documents.

  6. Hi Hokku,
    Many thanks for your comment. A few observations. The account is a translation of a translation of a translation of generations of passed down oral traditions. We have no idea what it originally said, be a particular phrase mean ’something’ or ‘nothing’. But we do have a generalised modern interpretation which is what I use.
    Regardless of what is said in Exodus about ‘days’, we cannot say both books were written by the same person, or coming from the same time. It is quite probable that Exodus came later, and simply agreed with the use of ‘day’ in the context of a 24 hour period. Perhaps you should take it up with the Comte de Buffon – although I recommend a Spiritualist.
    As for the problem of light on the first day, without sun, etc, until the 4th, I particularly spend time offering an explanation for this. I suggest you go back and read it again.
    As for my motive for writing the above? As I explain, there isn’t one. I’m simply placing the result of my own fascination with the subject. Make of that what you will.

  7. hokku said

    You wrote:
    “The account is a translation of a translation of a translation of generations of passed down oral traditions. We have no idea what it originally said, be a particular phrase mean ’something’ or ‘nothing’. But we do have a generalised modern interpretation which is what I use.”

    We have to deal with the text in the form in which it has been transmitted, and that is as a primitive creation myth. As I said, there is nothing wrong in allegorizing it, but what is the point? Such varied allegories are not the understanding inherent in the text itself. They are simply an attempt to adapt a primitive creation tale to what we know of modern science. But why bother to do it? Why not just let science speak of the scientific, and let Genesis speak of its primitive cosmology?

    Again, such attempted minglings of science and primitive cosmology are characteristic of an intermediate state in moving from reliance upon the Bible as “divine authority” to reliance upon science to describe the universe and its origins. But in reality they give neither science nor primitive cosmologies their due.

  8. Hi Hokku,
    That’s an opinion, of course, which may have as much validity as mine. With one proviso. You speak of knowledge in terms of religion or science. This is a mistaken assumption and polarises knowledge.
    There is something inbetween. Philosophy – the use of reason to conceptualise. If nothing else, my essay should be seen as a reminder of this – a reminder that our present knowledge systems should maybe listen to.

  9. hokku said

    You wrote:
    “You speak of knowledge in terms of religion or science. This is a mistaken assumption and polarises knowledge.”

    No, I speak of letting ancient creation myths express themselves in their own terms, and not rewriting them to fit our present-day understanding of the cosmos. Doing so does no justice to science or to the ancient texts.

    But again, you are free to do what you wish. I fail to see any point in it, but if you enjoy it, perhaps for you that is point enough.

  10. Techne said

    Anthony,

    Please forgive me for indulging my personal hobby-horse here.

    ‘ … and God said, Let there be lights in the firmament to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons and for days, and years …
    ‘ … And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: He made the stars also.’

    The use of the word “signs” (and I am assuming that the translation closely approximates our word “sign”) has always interested me. I would interpret this as meaning either a marker for the traveler to get a sense of direction, or (and this is closely aligned with my first interpretation) a form of divination or direction of the Divine Will, such as astrology. I’m sure that this intrepretation has been covered many times elsewhere, but it bears repeating that in ancient times astrology and omens were taken quite seriously.

    I don’t think this is taking things out of context, nor do I think it is un-Christian. Trying to determine what God wants you to do by reading the “signs” that He put up doesn’t really strike me as a form of occult “evil.” (Even ultra-conservative Christians pray for ’signs’ or confirmation of God’s will for them. Why the disconnect here? Would they rather a voice spoke to them in their head? I mean, God created the stars and planets, did He not?…or are they spawns of Satan? You can’t have it both ways! As they say, “God don’t make junk!”)

    My Oxford Annotated Bible rather hurriedly goes over this point by noting, “The sun, moon, and star are not divine powers that control man’s destiny, as was believed in antiquity, but are only ‘lights.’ Implicitly worship of the heavenly host is forbidden.”

    Well, if they are set forth as guidance from God about what He wants (and here the Oxford people are rather implicitly stating that the author(s) of Genesis didn’t know what he was talking about), and one is not worshipping the stars, but reading them as communication ordained in the Bible, then where’s the problem? And if they actually are communication from the Deity about what’s going down in town, they are not controlling destiny, the Deity is. He’s just doing the cosmic version of sky-writing, only He’s not advertising cigarettes or regattas. This is a no-brainer.

    Of course, we all know astrology is hokum, right? Which means the author of the Bible was wrong. But if he, she or it was wrong about that then…(Uh-oh)..

    But I digress. I am probably wrong. (Sniff!)

    Back to Sudoku. Much easier to interpret and far less likely to have my door kicked in by the Christian, Scientific and Humanist-Skeptic thought-police.

    Techne

  11. Hi Hokku,
    You said:

    ‘No, I speak of letting ancient creation myths express themselves in their own terms, and not rewriting them to fit our present-day understanding of the cosmos. Doing so does no justice to science or to the ancient texts.’

    No. I ask: could it be possible that a rudimentary scientific mind could be hidden beneath the allegory and poetry? If the central elements can be interpreted as such, then we are failing to be enquiring by not raising the possibility.
    Think pesher, and other ancient means in which ancient texts can be seen to speak on many levels.

  12. hokku said

    You wrote:
    “I ask: could it be possible that a rudimentary scientific mind could be hidden beneath the allegory and poetry? If the central elements can be interpreted as such, then we are failing to be enquiring by not raising the possibility.
    Think pesher, and other ancient means in which ancient texts can be seen to speak on many levels.”

    It is a “rudimentary scientific mind” only in the sense that the Genesis account is partly based on (mistaken) observation — for example considering the sky to be a great, circular dome over the earth in which the sun, moon and stars are set, and beyond which is a vast reservoir of water from which comes the rain through the “windows of heaven.” But in science, observation is just one aspect, requiring the collecting of evidence and testing of an hypothesis.

    I don’t think Pesher/Midrash applies in any scientific sense. But of course Pesher was never scientific — it was just reinterpretation of old texts to fit present conditions and the views of the writer. So if you want to consider what you are doing along those lines, I have no complaint, as long as it does not impute your allegorizations to the writers of Genesis. Knock yourself out.

  13. Hi Techne,
    Your comment jumped in whilst I was answering Hokku. I won’t take it as a ’sign’:-)
    What did ’sign’ mean in ancient times? The simnple answer is, we don’t know. I always use the King James version, so ’sign’ is, basically, as it was perceived in the 17th century. This is the problem, we are dealing with many translations, and interpretation suffers with each.
    I don’t necessarily class Astrology as hokum. See this:

    http://beyondtheblog.wordpress.com/2007/01/31/astrology

    In it I reverse Astrology, so it is us who place the interpretations, and arguably unconsciously live our lives as dictated – a kind of therapy to help us move through life. In this sense, the ’sign’ is closer to how we presently understand them, through Semiotics.
    Maybe the modern has re-learnt the ancient.

    Hi Hokku,
    When did science begin? Was Hero a simple ancient imbecile when he devised many of the functions of the steam engine? Did Aristotle apply a scientific mind? His view was not much different to what you seem to denigrate above. I suspect in a hundred years time many will look back at our ‘rudimentary’ science and think us stupid. But that attitude would be as wrong as it is now. Things move on in small stages, and at each stage there is great value.
    You said:

    ‘Pesher was never scientific — it was just reinterpretation of old texts to fit present conditions … ‘

    AND to hide higher knowledge, only for the initiated, from the rest.
    You further said:

    ‘Knock yourself out’

    Now I’m confused.

  14. Ashley said

    Perhaps I am missing something here, but I have a bit of an issue with what you’re presenting. I commend it, but I’ve found a bit of a conundrum if you will.

    You say that there may be a rudimentary scientific mind behind the writing of Genesis. However, the birth of the universe is something that has only recently (in the grand scheme of things) been understood. Even now we are STILL discovering things about the Big Bang Theory. How would it be possible for a rudimentary scientific mind, thousands of years ago, even have an iota of the capability to understand the origins of the universe? No one was around to experience it. Therefore, because there was no first hand experience, the oral tradition would HAVE to be based on a myth.

    It is interesting that you were able to line up Genesis with scientific fact, but those scientific facts are things that have only recently come to be understood.

  15. barryweber said

    The Talmud contains a long discussion about Light (before the Sun) being Wisdom. I like that discussion..!

    And, I think one of the mistakes we are prone to make is to think of myth as “mere myth”. Myth is the best explanation possible within the context of a time. It is, given whatever tools are at hand, the truth about that which information is being sought. New tools may reveal new aspects of the truth, but all of those aspects are built upon the myths and partial truths that preceded them.

    In other words (Ken Wilber’s phrase) “We’re all partly right.”
    :)

  16. Chris Bloom said

    This is ridiculous. The Bible was written by men. Which were not around at the time of the beginning of the known universe. Everthing in this essay is hence immpossible. Everything in the Bible is in fact bias accounts of the history of men. The Bible is just like any other religious book that is trying to figure out why we are here. There are plenty of civilazations that were isolated from the rest of the world with there own take on religion. The thing with man is we are curious. Which means we want answers and an explaination. So we create reasonable or scientific evaluations as best we can to understand whatever it is we are trying to figure out. I believe in the case of the Bible it was a book of laws, guidelines to get people to become civilized. Or else we are just animals, which were here a lot longer than a couple of days. Genisis would have to be written by god himself to be worth reading or true. I could go on and on about the fallicies of the Bible. But what is the point? Please anyone who wishes to discuss more with me please email me: cbloom324@yahoo.com Also, i mean no offense to anyone. I want answers.

  17. hokku said

    BarryWeber wrote:
    “And, I think one of the mistakes we are prone to make is to think of myth as “mere myth”. Myth is the best explanation possible within the context of a time.”

    “Best explanation possible” does not mean “good explanation,” just “explanation,” without worrying about accuracy. When Genesis says, in essence, that the sky is a solid dome above the earth, holding up the waters above it, that is simply a mistaken and “bad” explanation — bad in the sense that it is completely inaccurate.

    There is a sense in which myth may be considered to be the bearer of some kind of truth, not literal truth in itself — the sense in which Joseph Campbell understood myth to be metaphor — but that does not apply to such things as the Genesis misunderstanding of the structure of the cosmos.

  18. Brian said

    Well Anthony, nothing like a discussion of religion to set off everyone. Personally, it doesn’t matter in the least how the Universe was formed/created/trundled over from a higher dimension on a turtle’s back.

    Since humans have been writing and speaking about the beginnings since there was a beginning, it seems that the ‘facts’ will never be known.

    Philosophy will always be attacked from all sides since using our brains instead of blindly following_________ or _________ or any other ______ that appeals to you. God gave us brains and the ability to reason. I prefer to look at the night sky with awe and humility, rather than worry about who’s right and who’s wrong.

    Great post Anthony, but I can’t wait until you tackle something really important, like ‘Is take-away better in the north end or central London?’ :D

  19. Hi Ashley,
    Science is more than collection of data. The real scientific breakthroughs involve intuition, which is THEN backed up by data – think of the story of Newton and the falling apple; Einstein dreaming he was riding on the end of a beam of light. Metaphor, most likely, but indicative of intuition.
    Now let us go to Edgar Allan Poe, and his intuitive essay, Eureka. It was 1848 and he intuited Big Bang Theory. Go further back to Lucretius, who died in 55BC. He offered the first atomic theory and understood that matter must be created from something. Go back 4 more centuries to Aristarchus of Samos, who theorised a sun centred universe. He went out of vogue after Aristotle.
    These insights are not pseudoscience, but historical fact. And if it was possible in the 4th century BC, why not before?
    Could man have been around at the time of the Big Bang? Of course not. That’s why I write:

    ‘Mortal existence could only be viewed in terms of the Earth itself. So to understand the fourth day, we must view it in terms of what the writer could have experienced had he been on Earth at the time of the fourth day.’

    It is simple imagination – extrapolation of data placed on something that couldn’t be experienced. It is the normal scientific way of doing things today. After all, who has ever been inside an atom?

    Hi Bareryweber,
    You quoted:

    “We’re all partly right.”

    An important statement. I think most ideas are partly right. It is only placing an extreme stand on them that is wrong.

    Hi Chris Bloom,
    I direct you to the last part of my answer to Ashley, above. As to the Bible, or any other ‘religion’ being fallacy, I think you misunderstand what religion is – as most people do. Look out for my Language of the Gods, to be posted next Sunday. Also, checking out my Religion page may be useful. As for the Bible, I’ve studied it for years, and I’ve never come across anything in it that cannot have a rational explanation.

    Hi Hokku,
    You seem to have disdain for bad theories of the past. I suppose you have only scorn for the idea that gravity works through attraction of bodies. After all, Newton is now known to be wrong.

    Hi Brian,
    I suppose one thing I’m about is showing that polarities of knowledge are never right. It is all far too muddled. And I certainly hope we never get a definitive answer. What would we do then, I wonder?
    I once wrote a short story about our great intellectuals arguing about the nature of universal theory and forces. I gave the last word to Atlas:

    ‘Intellectuals make me sick. I never get the credit for anything.’

    I must post it some time. As for take-aways in London, I once lived in North London and worked in Oxford Street, right in the centre. I can categorically prove they’re both rubbish :-)

  20. hokku said

    Anthony wrote:
    “Now let us go to Edgar Allan Poe, and his intuitive essay, Eureka. It was 1848 and he intuited Big Bang Theory.”

    That is going a bit far. Poe’s cosmological theories were not simply “intuited,” but had their origin in the popularized version of the 18th-century astronomer Simon de LaPlace as popularized by the 19th-century John Nichol.

    And don’t forget that Poe’s theory includes not only expansion but contraction, and is thus more akin to the theory of an oscillating universe than to the “Big Bang” — thus Hinduism is relevant here, with its notion of endless cycles of repeated creation, expansion, contraction and destruction of the universe.

    I have known about Poe and LaPlace and the expanding-contracting universe theory since I was a boy, but I must admit I know nothing at all about the present state of take-away in London (we call it “take-out” here).

  21. Hi Hokku,
    Which just goes to prove, intelligent minds have theorised on such subjects for a long, long time – proved by the variation in form – ‘away’, ‘out’ … :-)

  22. hokku said

    Anthony wrote:
    “Which just goes to prove, intelligent minds have theorised on such subjects for a long, long time – proved by the variation in form – ‘away’, ‘out’ …”

    Anthony, is that relationship between “take-away,” “take-out,” and the expanding universe mythic or synchronistic, or merely intuitively linguistic?

    All right, I’ll stop before it gets even more silly. But I am pondering the relationships between galactic formation and pizza.

  23. Brian said

    Did someone say pizza????

    Right, Douglas Adams used bistromath, not pizza. ;)

  24. I would like to invite you to post your reply to an open question to all believers, on my blog:
    http://potomac9499.wordpress.com/2008/01/30/an-open-question-to-all-believers/

    I am asking in all sincerity, because I do actually want to understand differing view points, and since you seem quite certain of your faith, I feel your input would be relevant.

  25. Good morning Hokku and Brian,
    Did someone mention pizza!
    Ah, the fundamental crust upon which we place the etheric cheese. Tomato, as suns, bending CheeseTime. And around them, myriad forms, held in constant flux. But uuugh, what is that?!!
    Ah, life.

  26. Anthony
    Interesting discussion.
    If I may add to the “take-away” and “take-out” etymological line of thought; A “carry-oot” in Scotland is a carrier bag of clinking bottles (booze) bought at the pub or off-sales.

    As for the erudite discussion. I go with you on the Oral tradition then written out in the form best understood by the writer. In my opinion that is exactly what you are attempting to do in your exegesis.

    In another fifty years we may have a different glimpse of what was described in Genesis.

    That is sufficiently divine for me.

    Just my musings and please folks, don’t stone me in the town square.

  27. Hi Winslie,
    And I’ve known many a delightful Scottish friend – especially when I was in the Forces – who we also had to ‘carry-home’. Predictably, the favour was often returned :-)
    Don’t worry, there’ll be no stoning on my blog. Just good debate – and, okay, the occasional humour.

  28. Robin said

    Hi Anthony!

    I found your article both fascinating and enjoyable.

    Blending biblical creation with scientific understanding is a noble gesture, and as we have all witnessed here, but not without consequence.

    Shannon’s point was interesting in that ancient man was far more intelligent that credit was given. But she failed to realize that with time, man’s knowledge increased as was prophesied in the Book of Daniel.

    “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” Daniel 12:4

    As our knowlwdge has increased through science, the ancient wisdom was revealed as well.

    Science does wonders in revealing biblical truth. We need more of it.

    Cheers!

  29. Fascinating discussion, AN !

    Your essay sent my mind spinning towards Zecharia Sitchin.
    Probably for a possible explanation of how early man came into such information, to be orally passed down, and eventually written.

    Book of Enoch also springs to mind. Perhaps you’ve written about this in the past?

  30. Hi Twilight,
    I’ve got some work I’ll eventually be posting on the ancient astronaut theory, although I tend towards the idea that the ancients were far more intelligent, in themselves, than we presently accept. I go into this slightly on the first link on comment 4.
    Saying that, your comment took me back – not that far though :-) Many years ago I went into the Book of Enoch for some pieces on angels. This was way back in the days of steam-powered typing, and I haven’t even put them on computer yet.
    I’m getting visions of the Nephilim as I type …

  31. baz said

    hi anthony
    looks like you have found one of the things that the, “gods who created man in their image”, left us as a blueprint for evalution and creationalism. as there are two creation accounts, two sets of gods maybe? that means many biblical myths are fact, makes reading the bible a whole different proposition. the so called experts need to slay their sacred cows and research with an open mind.

    baz remember you are god

  32. Hi Baz,
    Open minded research is what this is all about.

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