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THE THING ABOUT ADAM’S RIB

Posted by anthonynorth on January 28, 2009

Including Totally Optional Prompts and Three Word Wednesday.
Have you had a go yet?

beta-man-tree Unlike many rationalists, I do not scoff at the Creation as described in the Bible. I don’t believe that Creation occurred as narrated, but I am convinced there is a lot of reasoned thought within the account.
Most scientists don’t like this idea. Rather, it is rubbish produced by a superstitious culture with no hold upon reality whatsoever. Hence, we have the two polarities of the Evolution/Creation controversy.

I disagree with both stances.

wood2Taking the scientific view, it is blatantly not true that such ancient societies descended into superstition alone. Superstition didn’t build the pyramids, or work out agriculture. Reasoned thought had to be involved.
This said, I am always on the look-out for reasoned thought within the Bible, and I nearly always find it. And as an exercise in just what I mean, there is no better example than the idea that Eve was created from Adam’s rib.

The whole idea seems ridiculous.

But read on. Adam is created first, but he is then made to sleep and God takes one of his ribs with which to make woman. Of course, together they make a potent force, and procreation soon occurs.
This is the first important point – that procreation had not occurred before hand. A further point is that, during the Adam and Eve Narrative, the writer seems to embody the whole process of life in Adam.

We now have what we need to make sense of it all.

Indeed, it can become quite reasonable. And what we must first argue is that, if female was not yet existent, can we call Adam male?
I think not. Indeed, I would argue that we can best understand the account if we class Adam as a hermaphrodite – i.e. sexless. Now, prior to sexual reproduction, evolution relied on asexual reproduction.

sage1 How did asexual reproduction occur?

It involves cloning, by taking a cutting from the parent in order to produce an offspring. And with such information we can look at the Adam and Eve Narrative in a totally new light.
To me it becomes a perfect symbolic understanding of the change from asexual to sexual reproduction, with a cutting (rib) taken from a hermaphrodite, leading to male and female, and the obvious sexual reproduction that then followed.
One obvious deduction some could make from this is a process of incest, with Adam being the parent of Eve, but it implies no such thing if looked at it terms of symbolic understanding of evolutionary change.
Indeed, the narrative becomes a marvellous explanatory tale better than any scientist has so far managed to produce. And if correct, it shows that, underlying the general trend of Creation, is a reasoned mind-set at work.
One other point of importance, whilst this essay seems to favour evolution over Creation, as such, it actually does no such thing, for it leaves intact the possibility of a God-force driving the process forward.
Could such reasoning eventually lead to a middle ground between evolutionist and Creationist. Well, yes – though I won’t hold my breath.

© Anthony North, January 2009

office

OPPOSITES

Black and white, up or down,
Hot, cold; smile or frown,
Opposites side by side,
never meet, nor confide;
Left or right, bringing strife,
politics sticking in the knife,
yet male and female equal life,
now and then they meet, are rife;
Maybe we should remember this,
when opposites merge life is bliss

(c) Anthony North, January 2009

alpha-mask

INNER THOUGHTS

Are we who we seem to be,
the very person others see,
or do we have an inner being,
closed from view, never seen?
Ruled by thoughts, often jagged,
carrying with them our life’s baggage,
sometimes serene, perfect caress,
full of love and tenderness;
At other harsh, spiteful, vile,
ruthless with a sadistic smile;
This inner life is closed from view,
but guiding us, never true,
a facade being our only task,
the real ‘us’ hidden by our social mask

(c) Anthony North, January 2009

114 Responses to “THE THING ABOUT ADAM’S RIB”

  1. SOME RECENT TWITTERINGS

    Fiction: As a hypochondriac, he was careful in all he did. Cured, he was run over by a truck.

    ***

    A thought: I don’t get it. If a person indulges in self help, why does he need a book to help him?

    ***

    SON: ‘When I grow up I want to be a celebrity.’ FATHER: ‘No, son, it’s got to be one or the other.’

    ***

    Fiction: The sign of true love! After he kissed her she decided to marry him – and resolved to book him a dentist.

    ***

    The world used to be feudal with barons and serfs. Then intellect was born – leading to tycoons and consumers.

    Follow me on Twitter

  2. Hi Tony, I like the idea of a middle ground between evolutionists and creationists but like you I won’t hold my breath.

    I never thought of the ‘cloning’ aspect in the Adam and Eve story, I’ll have to go away and read up on this, then I’ll be back with my twopunnce worth!

  3. thommyg said

    Another thought-provoking post. I liked what you did with the 3WW prompts in the last poem.

  4. Very interesting thoughts Anthony. I like how you explain your viewpoints in a reasoned way.

    Rose

    xo

  5. John Ryan said

    It’s a good thing you won’t hold your breath; there seems to be little “middle ground” on ANY issue these days. What an original concept: the origin of sexual reproduction that dismisses neither creation or evolution. You’ve done it again, Anthony. Since the creation narrative in Genesis seems to have borrowed heavily from Sumerian texts, I just wonder what those guys had to say about it. You may have inspired me to look that up! Well done, Anthony.

  6. Hi Andy,
    Yes, it’s a great idea, but it would be one helluva slog to get it accepted.
    Oh, naive fool, me!!! 🙂

    Hi Thom,
    Thanks for that. I knew I’d get that little mask picture posted some time.

    Hi Rose,
    Many thanks. But I can almost guarantee that by the end of this comment thread there’ll be some who disagree that it’s reasoned 😉

    Hi John,
    Very kind words, sir! Many thanks. Yes, the ‘middle ground’ seems to be disappearing throughout knowledge. It’s science or religion, with the true middle ground, philosophy, ignored. But I’ll struggle on.
    I think there’s an imp of the perverse in me.

  7. Twilight said

    This is a lot to think about on a cold icy morning, AN! 😉
    More questions…..if the rib story is a kind of analogy, somebody must have understood what lay behind the analogy in order to make it….but how? Had an earlier civilisation left enough information behind so that a new seminal civilisation could piece it together sufficiently to inform others, in a simple way? There could be other, more fantastical explanations too. 🙂 I’m thinking about the Book of Enoch, “Fallen Angels” and such.

  8. Hi Twilight,
    Oh, there are some amazing possibilities as to where such knowledge could have come for, but I must admit, I settle for the simplest – that, despite superstition, there was true reasoning from way back in prehistory.
    For instance, it would be reasonable for them to assume that, seeing much of life is sexless, and we are life, we must have come from a previous form of reproduction.
    They could see seeds spread in the wind and birth new life, and rationalise that a part of a parent produces an offspring. Just consider Adam coming from the dust of the Earth. It hints strongly that they reasoned that we come from smaller elements. They didn’t understand cells or anything like that, but picked the smallest thing they could see – dust.

  9. Oh the prized middle ground. Everything needs to come to the middle ground. What a wonderful world it would be.

    I really loved your Inner Thoughts piece. Really capped your whole post off.

    Have a terrific day Anthony. 🙂

  10. Hi Sandee,
    Thanks for that. Yep, it would be a wonderful place.

  11. Pretty Prats said

    I really loved your thoughts reg evolution of human and world … not to forget the poem abt opposites 🙂

  12. Hi Pretty Prats,
    Many thanks. I’m pleased you liked the post. Much appreciated.

  13. Linda G said

    Hi Anthony,

    “Adam is created first, but he is then made to sleep and God takes one of his ribs with which to make woman. Of course, together they make a potent force, and procreation soon occurs.”

    Just a thought–Isn’t this also asexual reproduction? IE yourself & your clone- although of a different sex?

  14. bundleocontradictions said

    Adam & Eve: I’ve always thought the whole idea laughable, but you certainly offer an interesting alternative.
    Inner Thoughts: Oh, yeah. Hence “bundle-o-contradictions.” Sometimes I even confuse myself. 🙂

  15. Middle ground? One could only dream. Good poetry! I liked the Inner Thoughts particularly as it’s always seemed to me that masks are what we know…nifty picture. BTW I’m enjoying your Twitter posts…

  16. floreta said

    i like your train of thought here. interesting that adam should be asexual or hermaphroditic. you have some good points! and as always, love the poem treats in the end.

  17. Hi Linda,
    I think, if this is right, we’re simply talking about a symbolic metaphor as a means of explanation. I’m sure there are many variations and issues that could be taken from it – I’ve already mentioned the incest one – but I’m sticking to the basic premise.

    Hi Bundleocontradictions,
    Thanks for that. I think we all do from time to time 😉

    Hi Tumblewords,
    Many thanks. Ah, the middle ground. One day. I’m pleased you’re enjoying my twittering. I’m lovin’ it! Demanding to get something so short. Teaching me to edit all over again.

    Hi Floreta,
    Many thanks for that. A lovely comment which is much appreciated.

  18. Linda G said

    Hi Anthony,
    I agree with you & liked your proposition. I was just adding my twist on your thoughts, which are as always thought provoking. 😕

  19. Hi Linda,
    Your thoughts are always welcome. Indeed, I enjoy them and look forward to them. I’m just sticking closely to my line on this one – for obvious reasons 😉

  20. I think a problem with scientists is that they are literalists and the Bible is one big chain of metaphors! There really can’t be a conversation without a basic understanding of poetry.

  21. Hi Sandy,
    A vitally important point. The difference is in expression.

  22. Chris said

    Hi Anthony,
    You’ve really tackled a big one this time, I’ll keep watch over the trenches just in case! 🙂
    What came first, the chicken or the egg or cloning? It seems, to me, that there must have been some form of massive ‘intervention’ to move from asexual to sexual reproduction.
    Then again, we already know that parthenogenesis is ‘alive’ and well. It seems appropriate that this word is derived from the Greek terms for ‘virgin birth’. Just as interesting is the fact that Jacques Loeb is one of many (and one of the first) to have ‘created’ artificial parthenogenesis by pricking unfertilized frogs’ eggs.
    It has even been done with rabbit ‘eggs’ by using temperature change and chemical agents.
    I wonder if the Bible is a metaphorical ‘director’ for the human race (and possibly not even the first)?

    This is an awesome topic Anthony, I hope that your big toe is not too cold from the dipping? Thanks. 🙂

  23. Chris said

    Sorry Anthony,
    I also meant to say that if Twilight is cold and you have a freezing big toe, you are very welcome to visit me here in Adelaide, South Australia. It was over 114 degrees F yesterday (around 45.8C) and we have got a few more days of ‘it’ to go yet.
    So, if I appear to be rambling more than usual, don’t worry, its only heat stroke! 🙂

  24. Hi Chris,
    I suppose the ‘hows’ of it all are for science, and you know I never invade their territory 😉
    I’m simply making the philosophical point that the ancients were much brighter than we give them credit for – and that the evolution/creation debate CAN have a middle ground. Oh, and by the way, I haven’t started yet. This post is only my first shot. A barrage coming in the next few months – I’ll trickle them in slowly.
    I would feel most sorry for you in your heatwave, but I suspect the temperature will increase around here before this thread is through 🙂

  25. Linda G said

    Hi Anthony,
    Don’t know when Genesis was written, but the Gaza pyramids certainly speak volumes for the intellectual level of the ancients. Although there is no empirical proof for the age of these wonders of ancient architecture, I feel they are far older than archaeologists profess them to be.
    Mankind is limited by is cumulative experiences/vocabulary in attempting to describe what has not been described before- therefore the metaphors used were probably understood by the readers/listeners of that time period to mean something that is lost to us in the current world.

  26. Hi Tony, after much wailing and gnashing of teeth I’ve decided to stick with my 1992 explanation as outlined in my poem ‘The Poet Tree’ and subtitled ‘The Anagram of Eden’ http://sewina.blogspot.com/2008/02/poet-tree-anagram-of-eden-circle-of.html

    The only other thing I can think of is that Adam ‘dreamed it all up’ when God put him to sleep. Nah!

  27. Jamie said

    When you consider that virtually all of the Bible is a gathering together of folk tales, accumulated wisdom, and instructions for survival that has been passed down over thousands upon thousands of years until the invention of writing, there is bound to be a lot of truth. Scientists see chimpanzees using a “tool” of a stick pushed into an ant hill. The ants crawl onto the stick, the chimp eats the ants. The chimp who discovered this teaches the offspring how to get ants. Somebody thought that milk from a cows udder was drinkable. Someone stuck a hunk of meat over a fire. It’s all there, and let’s face it … how much difference is there between “Let There Be Light” and “Big Bang”

  28. Jeeves said

    When opposites merge, life is bliss. Very well said.

  29. stan said

    Some scientists say it all began with a microscopic particle of Hydrogen. The Big Bang occurred and the other elements were formed. The universe is still expanding – Adam and Eve, arguably, follows a similar theme, perhaps in words that could be related to.

  30. Hi Linda,
    That’s exactly how I see it. In many ways knowledge hasn’t increased – just changed. The modern intellect doesn’t like to admit this.
    As for how far back human intenuity goes, you might like my take on lost civilisations:

    Lost Civilization

    Hi Andy,
    In many ways, this isn’t too far from the poetry aspect this thread has already alluded to – although you do it with more style 🙂
    As I said when I first read it:

    ‘And this commenter looked, and it was good.’

    Hi Jamie,
    Got it in one. Indeed, I’d say some of those imaginative leaps were even greater than anything we can come up with today. As to the difference between the two approaches, it’s all to do with differing ideas of consensus, and that’s it.

    Hi Jeeves,
    Thanks for that. I’m glad you liked it.

    Hi Stan,
    Yes, I’m sure it does follow that similar theme, only in metaphorical language. I guess too many are not bright enough today to realise its importance 😉

  31. Linda G said

    Hi Anthony,
    Thanks for the link to your well thought out reflection on how old civilization may really be. It will be interesting to see what is made out of the recent explorations regarding the “great flood” evidence that may be found under the waters of the Black Sea.
    As a child, my first career aspiration was to become an archaeologist(really!). And I hold that interest still today. I am disappointed by the “closed mind” approach to intriguing new finds & the lock into the status quo theories. This is antithetical to all that true knowledge/understanding embraces. But you are all too aware of this also…

  32. Hi Linda,
    Very true. It all comes down to a lack of free thinking. Everything has to be specialised, and in going to university people are virtually brainwashed into this way of thinking. All else must be ignored.

  33. Linda G said

    Hi Anthony,
    It’s ironic, but in the US most teachers are very liberal minded. One would think that would lend itself to a teaching approach that encourages the inquiring mind. And the inquiring mind is what leads to leaps in our knowldge base- I’m thing Einstein, Fermi, Edison, etal.
    Awhile back you wrote upon the value of a liberal arts education (that’s what we call it here- ie nonspecialized) & I now understand why you wrote as you did.
    But how to properly combine that learning, which encourages exploration, with the technical knowledge that is required in this modern world, in a benefical way, is beyond my scope.

  34. Hi Linda,
    My answer is what this site is all about. Patternology – or P-ology. You’ll find a definition at the beginning of this blog – on my ABOUT page, top left of site.

  35. angie said

    Wow…a big snake you stirred up in the garden!

    I think it’s interesting how so much of these stories take sex out of the equation. Just my opinion, but I think what it really boils down to is misogyny…or just plain old fear-of-women.

    Love your poems, btw: nice prompt-usage!

  36. The sad folly that unavoidably doomed Adam from the beginning,
    was that the poor lad wanted a Mommy first! 😉

    That gag and the cartoon were conceived by Quino, an Argentinian genius and one of my personal heroes.

  37. Selma said

    I won’t hold my breath for finding middle ground on that one, Anthony, unless we go back to believing in spontaneous generation.

    Both of your poems are very astute observations. I like your rhyming schemes – a lot of poets shun rhyme these days. Glad to see you are keeping it alive!

  38. Hi Angie,
    Yes, there’s certainly a degree of misogyny in later expressions, but if you go into it, I think this attitude began with politics. As man’s ego rose, they had to suppress the previous feminine/nature type religions. Then it all got mixed up.

    Hi Red,
    Loved that cartoon! Although it requires another scriptural rewrite if I’ve viewed it correctly:

    ‘And before Adam and Eve, got created glasses – and there was sight!’ 🙂

    Hi Selma,
    Many thanks. Yes, many poets don’t like rhyme – which, I must admit, is one reason why I do it 😉

  39. oppsition makes us grow, if all would have been the same, how sad and dull it would all be.
    there is the Kablistic look at the bible i worte some time before about (of course only timy timy bit of my none-understanding of it). it looks into it as (you have siad too) a model , in the case i see, as a model for relationship, all our relationship in life. and can be seen in many way, uncountable as humens around. i like your view of it. and too, i don’t see the point in trying so hard to say it is bullshit (sorry) while you can find so many truth inside, so much beuaty, it just take some vision and approach.

  40. James said

    If God created Adam, why did He need to create a woman after Adam’s separation?

    It is precisely the female part of man, which creates the desire to bring everything to correction. Yes this means man is broken part its womens role to give man the desire. With out it man quite happily sit around waiting. ie watch football drink etc.

    When Adam Kadmon fell into this world he broke into 600,000 pieces, the breakage is still happening today we have 7 billion pieces. Women and men were part one creature called Adam. The root of sexual reproduction is based in the spiritual worlds. Trying to understand it from this world is impossible. Another thing everything in bible speaks only of spiritual worlds not one bit of it relates this world.

  41. James said

    yes this is Kabbalist point of view. The only correct view imo 😛

  42. Hi Utopianfragments,
    Many thanks. No, I never ignore ancient texts. I rarely accept them as said, but there is some marvellous truth in them.

    Hi James,
    Thanks for that.

  43. Oh, yeah, opposites are necessary, that’s for sure!

  44. Hi Linda,
    Yep, essential – in a moderate kind of way.

  45. pieceofpie said

    WOW… interesting thoughts, interesting responses tony….always like to consider the monkey with the tie… we have come so far but yet we still drag the club around seeking to devore each other in one way or another… yes, that we could possibly come and reason together… impossible for the most part… with few glimpses inbetween… on that note, i cannot help but to think of adam’s rib… spencer tracy and katharine hepburn… hilarious… ah, the law, now thaz something to consider between man and woman… loved the mask poem.. remember having a discussion abt that a few years ago at a church group study i attended.. something abt we open our hearts in united pray but rarely do we remove our mask.. it is placed on our hearts the moment we wake… and again, few and far inbetween do we have the courage to remove and be real to each other…

  46. Hi Pieceofpie,
    Thanks for that comment – I particularly liked your words on the mask.

  47. James said

    Its impossible to remove the mask under ones own power. Only with help of the upper force can you do that. Why? because are totally enveloped in state called egoism. Its the cause of breakage that made Adam fall into this corporeal world. This is what needs to be fixed for us to return to that state.

  48. Gary in Texas said

    Zecharia Sitchin’s first book was written in 1976 (12th Planet) and explains how man was created based upon Sumerian cuneiform texts.

  49. Hi Gary,
    Thanks for that. If only we could go back further, to see where the Sumerians got it from.

  50. This is a ver fascinating subject. Iam Catholic (converted)
    and our diocese sponsored a class a few years ago that covered creation and evolution. Seaking to the superstitions of ancient cultures, if you read many of the ancient attempts at explaining our creation, they are very similar.
    Take the biblical account of creation itself…God seperated dark and light. If you look I believe at the sumerian account, there was a great battle between gog amd magog that split the heavens in two.
    Of course I wont go into all of it here, by the end of the course, and also the subject of paper I wrote, was that creation and evolution rely on each other. God created the universe from a void. Science still cannot explain where the Big bang came from. Science itself proves you cannot create something from nothing. Who is to say God didnt set the whole thing in motion? THe thin gthat has to be remembered in reading the ancient stories of creation is that they didnt have the scientific knowledge base we have today to explain things. Funny thing is tho that they all seem to be so simliar.

  51. Hi Calvin,
    Thanks for that comment. Science is only concerned with ‘how’, and rarely asks ‘why’. This is the region of theology or philosophy, which should not be ignored so easily by science.
    The world is, indeed, more than science alone.

  52. Robin Finnell said

    Interesting thoughts… I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of an organization called “Reasons to Believe” but they’ve literally written volumes on these types of subjects. Here’s their web site: http://www.reasons.org/

    Have a great day. 8^)

  53. Hi Robin,
    Thanks for the comment – and the link.

  54. Luis T said

    Hola Anthony!
    I find at last someone along the same line of thought that I seem to have come to. Many years ago before I left the seminary, I had questions, anytime the question did not confirm what was taught I was remedied by having to meditate upon the specific scriptures. The problem being that the more I meditated the more I was convinced there was a different answer. I too am of the idea that (don’t giggle now!) the beginning chapters of Genesis in the Bible is telling us about a Genetic experiment on Cloning gone bad or tampered with, except that it is told as seen by the eyes of those of that era. Obviously not to the capacity that we have for scientific understanding. Obviously this itself lends for the uneducated to make a mystic parallel in order to explain the ocurrence, for example, God did it therefore it needs no explanation so if you ask its because you have no faith.

    Big Bang, I’m not convinced, nope, it does not explain how come there are Galaxies instead of many chunks of galactic matter speeding away from a central point. Why would planets be round?

    As far as Creation, it does not explain God. According to what I was told God requires no explanation for God has always been. Been where? Been What? Why? As far as one of the comments on how come almost all civilizations have the same stories, think about that people, if all civilizations stem from one point of origin all their stories will be same or share the same information, it may change through time as groups disperse and points of view change, but it will still have the same point of origin.

    Adam: Gods clone, Eve: Adam’s clone; Abel and Cain continued the process, then after that it has been an eternity of incestuous indivduals since we stem from one man and one woman. Unless (and they Biblically snuck this one in) they had other people being created at other places, which would explain why Cain was marked so that “the other tribes” would not kill him.

    Even today, the best way to clone is through gestation and birth. I have yet to hear of a successful cloning where the embryo was totally fertilized and developed without a womb, have you? And evolution, well, it is in everything. We assimilate and adapt to all we see or do. Then we improve upon ourselves in order to overcome. If that isn’t evolution, I do not understand what is… Middle ground is more like Middle Earth, depends on whom you talk with and how open minded they are.

  55. I’ve found the clues you are looking for.

    Rib (of adam (RNA)

    He was both male and female. The ultimate human autogenome and autogeneisis, The meaning the 9th being also
    the ninth planet.

    123456789
    __________
    abcdefghi
    jklmnopqr
    stuvwxyz

    The sought to glorify himself, by adding his touch on things.
    He was tricked into giving life to the adamas by breathing his life force into adamas
    by his sister ISIS. Then Isis and Elohim created EVE by utilizing Adamas’s RNA.

    Start taking every capital letter you see in the KJV Bible and write them down.

    I have found these in it. DNA, AGES, SEAS.

    The Holy Bible (Tetragammaton) is a dimensional object. Containing. GOD IAM, YESHUA EMANUEL, and yes even Satans own personal touch.

    I hope this will help

  56. The (I) is the selfish drakonian image of God.
    The (E) is the emition of Gods force
    The (A) is his AM that is all around us.
    The (N) is all his works that erases error makes hidden those things that are worthless.
    The (R) is the revelance of all things
    The (J) is just as AMEN
    The (s) is the symphony of it all.

  57. alanborky said

    Somewhat like you seem to be, Anthony, I’m strongly disposed to the notion our forebears were just as intelligent as we are. In fact, as a result of not having easy access to the vast reams of data available on the internet, (or even, for that matter, information in the form of printed books), they had to memorize everything, hence their mental ‘muscles’ were prone to being far more developed than ours, making them, arguably, potentially far more intelligent than us, their modern counterparts.

    Furthermore, possibly as a result of not yet having made any distinction between numbers and letters, (meaning words were understood as being BOTH words AND numbers, numbers as BOTH numbers AND words), our forebears were also capable of understanding items such as Genesis on multiple, often seemingly contradictory levels, something often somewhat exceedingly too subtle for many a modern mind to even credit, never mind comprehend.

    Thus I have no difficulty with your notion of Genesis being about cloning or, for that matter, your hermaphroditic observations, (other than to add that in ages past the hermaphroditry component was also understood on a metaphysical level), I merely wish to add my own particular suggestion it can be understood on at least two other levels.

    As far back as the earliest KNOWN ancient civilization, the Sumerian, the word for ‘rib’ and ‘life’ were synonymous, i.e., ‘ti’, and if you take the letter ‘X’ and break off one of its ‘ribs’, you get the letter ‘Y’. Putting the two together you get ‘XY’ making it, of course, a very passable visual representation of the male chromosome, even as ‘XX’ bares a definite resemblance to that of the female chromosome.

    That Genesis may be portraying ‘Adam’ as originally having had female chromosomes only to surrender an ‘eighth’ of his femaleness in order to create modern woman is, I’d suggest, understandable on a number of levels, including, if not especially, the metaphysical.

  58. Hi Luis,
    I wouldn’t go as far as an ancient cloning experiment, but it is always good to question any knowledge system, religious OR scientific.

    Hi Tonie,
    Thanks for that. Much appreciated.

    Hi Alan,
    Many thanks for that. Yes, I’m convinced the ancients were as intelligent, if not more so, than us. I suspect the nature of the knowledge was different – certainly more holistic – and we could learn so much by trying to understand them more.

  59. Patty said

    ahhh…very good reasoning.
    the story of the apple leads to procreation and there is a snake;
    the snake perhaps indicates dna changes?

  60. Hi Patty,
    Thanks for that. That, or it’s some kind of phallic imagery, often found in ancient myths around the world.

  61. Steve said

    Here is how it could be done: First you put Adam under anesthesia. Next surgically remove a rib. The bone marrow within the rib is full of “stem cells”. Next take a nucleus out of one of these cells. Use your microsurgical skills to remove or ablate the Y chromosome. Obtain an X chromosome from another of these cells and inject it into the nucleus from which you ablated the Y chromosome. Take this now XX nucleus and place it in an ovum, perhaps from a chimp and remove the nucleus that came with that ovum originally. Give the now human nucleus containg ovum a slight electrical stimulus and replace it into the chimp’s uterus. Wait the appropriate time, do a C section and raise the resulting human female until she is old enough to be introduced to Adam. Surely there are variations on this formula, but this is one concievable way to do this.

  62. Hi Steve,
    Thanks for that. Although I’m not saying it is evidence of cloning – simply that the story shows a symbolic understanding that we came from lesser lifeforms, and HAD to change from asexual to sexual reproduction.

  63. Luis T said

    Hi Anthony,

    Upon thinking about your comment, I do not believe Adam was reproducing asexually since apparently he was “made” in “their image”. I seem to understand that the preocupation was, that there would be no reproduction at all. It seems to be implied that Adam was reaching depression and angst. Being the only human around. His animal friends were not the same and could not comprehend or understand his way of communicating. The Gods/God felt compelled to alleviate this by making the female. If Adam would of been asexual then there would of been some other form of procreation other than intercourse. There had to be an ulterior motive for this God to take pity/decide that this human had to preocreate. A lab experiment? Perhaps. Create a race of slaves? Perhaps.

    You need remember, that before the Biblical God abandoned us we had to do as told unquestionably. Follow his rule or die. Everywhere we turned it had to be his way or no way. Eventually after not being able to achieve his goal he departed along with his minions. What clues me in to thinking cloning? When the God/Gods identify the creation as being in their image and having the Breath of life given. Am I wrong in thinking this? Hmmm…

    The whole of Genesis sounds to me like a controlled experiment that got contaminated (knowledge imparted to the subjects). This particular section reeks of slavery. If the subject has no knowledge then he can’t rebel. He must subjugate to the knowledgable one and surrender to their power since they are the only way the subject can survive. I believe it is also a very nice story, but it still makes me uneasy to think what would we be today had there been no contamination (eating the forbidden fruit). Notice that Adam was punished not just for eating the fruit (disobeying), but for acquiring knowledge/enlightment.

  64. Hi Luis,
    The purpose of knowledge in the Adam and Eve Narrative is something I will be coming to in a later essay, so will say nothing more on that now. I’d correct you on one important point in your comment.
    God didn’t want Adam to procreate. Indeed, he expressly banned it, and it’s partly because of the procreation that they were banished from Eden.

  65. baz said

    hi anthony
    your rib hypothesis is interesting, but who do you speculate did the cloning? if you read both creation stories from genesis it lays out a trail all the way back to the amoeba for scientists, and back six thousand years for the religeous community, with dynosaurs even? they fight over the money, power, and prestige that winning will bring, not god, adam, and a rib.

    remember you are god

    baz

  66. Hi Baz,
    No one does the cloning. I don’t actually say anyone did. The sentence with the ‘cloning’ word begins:

    ‘To me it becomes a perfect symbolic understanding of the change from asexual to sexual reproduction … ‘

    I’m claiming no more here than it was a metaphor identifying a possible understanding of basic evolutionary principles. Nothing more than that.

  67. Luis T said

    Hi Anthony,

    This is one of the few places I have been where we actually discuss a topic without foul language or derisive comments. Thank you for that. Now, this is the reason I do not agree with your comment about procreation, the gods themselves told Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply on the first Creation story (Genesis Chapter One), and they repeat this on the second (different) Creation story and as a matter of fact, the Gods are the ones that say that it is not good for Adam to be by hisself. Then they take his rib (this is the better known story)and make Eve. Later they tell them to also populate the earth.

    Why did they get banished from Heaven? Maybe here’s a clue:

    21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make a coat of skins, and clothed them.
    22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

    At least he clothed them before the eviction…

  68. Hi Luis,
    Thanks for that. I don’t allow bad language on this blog, and as I’ve pointed to the occasional visitor, manners cost nothing.
    So I’ll disagree with you in a gentlemanly manner 🙂
    Basically, you could well be right, but in all my research on such subjects, I think there is a root to such stories, certainly, but it is lost to prehistory.
    Whilst they may offer hints of knowledge far advanced on what many accept, they remain, to me, metaphor and allegory as a means of explanation.

  69. Chris said

    Hi Anthony,
    Talk about being a master of understatement!
    “but it is lost to prehistory.”
    If it is determined that the tortoise-shell carvings found in China are accepted as the first, known, form of writing, then pre-history ends in approximately 6,000 B.C. If the Homo genus diverged from the Australopithecines about 2,000,000 million years ago, then there is certainly a lot of time for things to get ‘lost’! 😉
    Even if we assume that pre-history started with archaic homo sapiens who, apparently, evolved approximately between 400,000 and 250,000 years ago, then there is still plenty of time for things to ‘go astray’. I wonder just how much knowledge we have really forgotten?

  70. Hi Chris,
    At a rough guess, 99%. And 100% wisdom 🙂

  71. Chris said

    Hi Anthony,
    Couldn’t you have at least left us with .01%, I’m trying to remain optimistic! 🙂
    By the way, the ‘acolyte’ is ‘striking’ elsewhere. 😉

  72. Hi Chris,
    But the less we have, the more we have to achieve 😉
    Be optimistic about the journey – Oh, except in the UK. The snow’s brought us to a standstill.

  73. Chris said

    Hi Anthony,
    I think that we are trying to achieve a world record ‘pole vault’ here, we may need a longer runup! 🙂
    We’re still in the 40C’s down here, funnily enough that seems to have slowed us down too, ahhh, the beauty of contrasts, and, I guess,the more that we have to achieve, then the greater the satisfaction we derive at journey’s end. 😉

  74. baz said

    hi anthony

    i understand where you are at, but as everything is designed to fit seamlessly,”no round pegs”,the only thing that can change an outcome is free will.

    remember you are god

    baz

  75. paul said

    If you are the only one to understand what the text means in the 2000 years since its been written, surely that means its been badly written?

  76. Hi Chris,
    Your last words are very true – and I could do with a bit of your sun just now 😉

    Hi Baz,
    You’ve got a point there.

    Hi Paul,
    The only one to understand? I claim no such thing. I’m simply putting out ideas, to be accepted as people choose.
    Most ancient texts are poetic, and the whole point of good poetry is to layer it with meaning, the reader being an important element in what the words say.
    I suppose you’re saying all poetry is badly written 😉

  77. paul said

    Hi Anthony,

    “The only one to understand? I claim no such thing”. – So you don’t claim to understand it?
    “I’m simply putting out ideas, to be accepted as people choose” – so no facts no backing up no nothing then.
    “Most ancient texts are poetic” are they?
    “I suppose you’re saying all poetry is badly written ” – a lot of poetry is badly written lol, but all this ‘many layers’ and ‘hidden level’ type of talk means you can interpret it as you please and what ever is in fashion at the time is incorporated into the meaning.

  78. Hi Paul,
    There used to be a noble practice called philosophy, where thinkers simply thought things through and wrote their thoughts, to be accepted simply on the rationality behind the concept.
    It was quite successful. It birthed democracy, capitalism, science, freedom, human rights, and a host more. And it should have gone on to be the middleground between science and religion.
    My posts are in the spirit of this system of thought. So no, I don’t claimn to understand, and yes, I’m simply putting out ideas. Do you get it yet? 😉

  79. JBanholzer said

    Sergey Brin anagrams into Ribs Energy.

  80. Linda G said

    Hi Anthony,
    Is this a record for ongoing posts? – your adam’s rib has generated quite a few interesting responses.
    The simple philosophical exploration really benefits us all. To only ponder those things which are solidly supported by “facts” would make one’s world(mind) such a far smaller place.

  81. Hi Linda,
    I think the record for responses is 95, but that was over a much longer period. This is a record for such a small time – just.
    Oh yes, facts may be quite right for science to work, but they are a burden to the truly enquiring mind. The mind must be allowed to roam, using reason as guide. The reality, or not, of the conclusions can then be debated.
    Sadly, they are mainly ignored today. We lose so much of ourselves because of it.
    Infact, this response may well end up as a post in a week or three.

  82. Linda G said

    Hi Anthony,
    Good- I enjoy your philosophical &/or psychological posts very much. It’s fun to explore all the nuances of your pieces- they are usually subtley multifacted & one read does not do them justice. And I am always surprised at the differences of responses one piece can generate. Your blog is a great place to visit if you are an observer of life, as I am.

  83. Hi Linda,
    Thanks for that. It feels good to be appreciated in this way. Makes it all worthwhile.

  84. hey there, nice article i often comtemplate strange issues such as these, and the stink part is we will never know as i do believe there was a great rational understanding in our history and the caveman – golden age humans story as told by most of history is not without flaws , and the fact the bible and such as stated above is down to understanding in the message. who knows mabye the person passing the storys down oral/written didn’t have words for hermephrodite etc and stuff and this was the best way they could explain it from there understanding of long history..

    but the one thing i wanted to bring up that accured to me after reading comments etc…is the point quoted (Of course, together they make a potent force, and procreation soon occurs.)that it didn’t say they get jiggy with it or even married etc… its said they reproduced…and if they were hermephrodites and you say and they were expelled from the garden of eden,then who says they stuck together / didn’t clone themselves again and didn’t spread out to live in different climates/diets etc to effect the genes and create the differences we see today?… just another way to look at things i guess hehe..guess i better reread some bible storys bit blurry on my knowledge on it. p.s note the recent finding of a shark in captivity impregnating itself (whos to say we cant do it, just lost the way and take to much pleasure the other way.

    thanks for the article anyway intrigued the mind about stuff i used to luv to get into lots.
    Jason Daniels

  85. Hi Jason,
    Thanks for that comment. It is always good to have the mind stretched from time to time. I guess I do it too much, though 🙂

  86. Luis T said

    Hi Anthony!

    It’s me again, couldn’t stay away from this too long. It is a freezing 73°F(22°C) here in SC, USA. I saw someone talking about hermaphroditic reproduction. In humans that would be quite a feat. Being that we are one of maybe three types of mammals in this world that are able to reproduce by facing each other. This hermaphroditic reproduction would have to occur internally if it were to happen with a single human since our reproductive organs are exposed; and hope that the dominant gene is female. Otherwise the testosterone won’t let it happen.

    And as far as the shark thing going on, prior to that were the frogs and salamanders that physically change sex in order to maintain a balance in their colonies. Either way; through Meiosis or Mitosis, reproduction requires a parent cell. So the question then would be where did the parent cell for Adam come from? Reproducing Eve could not have been through cloning (mitosis) since the off spring was Eve. So what was done then? Meiosis requires a male and female to produce the offspring, yet there was only Adam.

    Certainly there had to be more than one experiment going on (once again I remind you of Cain whom begged God to mark him so that no other tribes would kill him) in order for the world to achieve the population required. If all children descended from Adam and Eve as we are told, we have been commiting incest since Creation. After so many generations, birth defects would of been self evident and the population would of been in decline rapidly. But if another subject was introduced then the survivability rate would of gone up.

  87. Hi Luis,
    Thanks for that.

  88. Check out this link.
    http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/viewnews.php?id=146855

    KINDA GOES BACK TO MY COMMENT ABOUT ONE GOING HAND IN HAND WITH THE OTHER

  89. Hi Calvin,
    Yes, I read that article. It’s a move in the right direction, but a long way to go yet, me thinks.

  90. AbbyB said

    Hi Anthony I stumbled on to your blog for the first time today and must say that I am impressed. As far as mental ramblings this is deffinately a possiblity. Though I have to say that I still am far from convinved but lean more towards the Higher Being that almost every religion calls to is most likely an advanced race.

  91. Hi AbbyB,
    Thanks for the kind words there, and I hope you pop by again. The ‘advanced race’ explanation is becoming increasingly popular.

  92. Chris said

    Hi Anthony,
    You’ve probably read about the following item already, but just in case that you haven’t? The Vatican has indicated that evolution (as per Darwin) is compatible with creationism. It was announced by Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture. The article is from the Daily Telegraph, 11/02/09.
    You must have a lot of ‘followers’ from both the science and religious camps! 😉

  93. Hi Chris,
    Yes, I read the report. Not so much ‘followers’, but still following behind pseudoscholarship 🙂
    Is the world a’changing? I do hope so.

  94. Shaun said

    If the authors of Genesis were truly alluding to change in the type of reproduction, why weren’t they aware, or at least why didn’t they show that they were aware, that before sexes evolved there weren’t any humans, or other animals as we know them?
    What reason would they have had to allude to the change in reproduction, but not to the change in species?

  95. Hi Shaun,
    In the essay I say:

    ‘during the Adam and Eve Narrative, the writer seems to embody the whole process of life in Adam’

    I think this answers your question, in that the Adam and Eve Narrative is not the Creation Account. It is the following chapter. Species are mentioned in the first.

  96. Shaun said

    Hi. Right, but if this is what the passage really was meant to be interpreted as, why do we not have any clear evidence that people in those times had this kind of knowledge?

  97. Hi Shaun,
    Possibly because the written accounts were passed down oral traditions, so if it was communicated purely through speech, it was not permanently recorded, and as time went on, elements of it would slowly change, disappear, etc, until the final wirtten account is only a fragment of what that knowledge was.

  98. Shaun said

    That’s a nice answer.
    Although yours is just speculation it could sway some Creationists, I guess.

  99. Hi Shaun,
    Thanks for that.
    Of course, it’s all supposition. I deal in ideas. It is their rationality, or not, by which I’m judged.

  100. wildexe said

    Immortality is boring,

    I am the only one left,
    no one to talk to,
    nothing to do,
    nothing to learn,
    nothing to experience,
    I’ve gone through all things countless time,
    I am bored to death,
    but I cant
    because I am immortal

    Lets program something that makes us busy for the next zillion years, I said to Sam,
    but Sam says nothing,
    hes not really there,
    I am alone,

    What?
    So I made Adam,
    until I got bored of him,
    Until Sam gave me some more ideas,
    To spend my Immortality.

  101. Al Gates said

    Very thoughtful and thought out comments.

    My concerns about anthonynorth’s original comment lies in the assumption that the Bible’s Adam & Eve story has any degree of validity. based on the many, many, many translations and interpretations given by so many different authors(?) over hundreds and hundreds of years…if not thousands…who really knows.

    I do agree that the people of pre-history were not dummies by any stretch of the imagination. And, in fact, we may be the dummies.

    Yes, I love pre-history and all the lessons we are learning and have forgotten from that era.
    Anthonynorth comments always stimulate my thinking. Please don’t stop.

  102. Hi Al,
    Thanks for that – I won’t be stopping any time soon.
    Yes, of course there’s no certainty the story can be relied upon, but we have to work with what we’ve got – try to find meaning in it all.
    Everything I write is speculation, but it’s a practice that has declined in recent years. A great shame. We need the mind tweeked every now and again.

  103. Al Gates said

    You got it. What with all the technology available nowadays, i.e., iPods, iPhones, wii games, Blackberries, MP3. etcetc…serious human tweeking of the mind and the human touch is sorely needed.
    Thanks for taking the time to do this Anthony.

  104. Hi Al,
    You’re welcome, and thanks for the kind comment.

  105. jonamin akut said

    science and bible actually didn’t contradict….its just the bible is a condensed version of what actually happened thousand of years ago when the serpent god decided to put and x and y chromosome on adam and eve, facilitating procreation…clay tavlets unearth in sumer, decipher by archeologists, dated to be about 5,000 years old parallel to the stories of creation in the bible but much more detailed….

  106. Hi Jonamin Akut,
    Thank you for that contribution.

  107. So, I’m reading away and what happens? I mis-read procreation as procrastination. Damn, what does that say about me??? LOL. Glad I found this section!

  108. Hi Pop Art Diva,
    It happens 😉
    Hopefully you’ll find lots of goodies in my Y Files.

  109. Patty said

    I always just assumed it was dna manipulation…

  110. GOD said

    I don’t believe that Creation occurred as narrated, but I am convinced there is a lot of reasoned thought within the account.

    YEAH. THE CREATION ACCOUNT WAS MARRED IN TRANSLATION. EVE WAS THE FIRST AND I MADE ADAM OUT OF AN OLD FOOTBALL AND SOME AXLE GREASE THAT WAS STARTING TO GO OFF.
    ALSO THAT THING ABOUT THE SNAKE AND SIN WAS ALL WRITTEN BY SOME SAD LITTLE PRUDE THAT COULDN’T GET LAID. I TOLD ADAM AND EVE “PARTY ALL DAY IF YOU WANT BUT IF YOU GO OUTSIDE THE GARDEN AND START EXPLORING DON’T BLAME ME FOR WHAT YOU ENCOUNTER!”

  111. raj said

    eve has been produced fro Adam’s rib.That means from the way our society is structured,she would be cosidered to be his daughetr as she came out of her body part.Ultimately from human logic when they mate and produced children,then relation was incestuos one and the offsprings would be known as illegitimates.these kind of relationships are quite common in all the world mythologies,paricularly in indian.

  112. Hi Raj,
    Thanks for that. I’ve looked at myths all round the world and am always amazed by their universality.

  113. Myz Rozz said

    Here is my blog titled, “Adam’s Rib” I went looking for similar blogs and ran across this one though a little dated lol

    http://ghostfacewriter.blogspot.com/2011/04/adams-rib.html?zx=a56f90f90930739e

  114. jonamin Akut said

    The creation myth was but a hodgepodge of ideas collated from different ancient middle eastern religions and filtered by the compilers of the old testament as they see it fit to their agenda and religion. If the serpent represents the devil that tempt Eve to eat the apple and thereby die, then why is it that the serpent is also the symbol of medicine which represents the DNA that looks like a twisted ladder?

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